How to Address the Real Reason Behind the Driver Exodus

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:06.919 Welcome to the road forward, a podcast for trucking industry leaders. This is 2 00:00:06.960 --> 00:00:10.640 the show for industry that's like you, hard working, honest leaders who know 3 00:00:10.720 --> 00:00:16.359 there's promise around the next bend and exciting future for the trucking industry and a 4 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:20.079 chance for your company to thrive. If you see the opportunity ahead but don't 5 00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:23.199 want to travel the tough road alone, join us, as we talked with 6 00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:27.480 business leaders finding their way forward and a changing industry. Let's get into the 7 00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:32.920 show. Welcome to the road forward podcast. I'm flint. I'm here today 8 00:00:32.920 --> 00:00:36.359 with Nick. If you've been listening to the show, we are the two 9 00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:41.240 host we thought we would put our heads together today. We both watched this 10 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:46.600 John Oliver Bit. This is April sixth as of this recording. They came 11 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:50.039 out two days ago, and John Oliver does this, if you haven't seen 12 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:53.920 it, does this really funny bit about the trucking industry and how it has 13 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:59.920 all these systematic problems and brings up this idea that maybe there's actually not a 14 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:03.959 driver shortage, which I think we've heard on the show here several times from 15 00:01:03.959 --> 00:01:08.040 several guests. You know, everybody says I can't recruit drivers I can't retain 16 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:12.000 drivers. There's a driver shortage and it's felt that way for a really long 17 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:17.680 time and John Oliver had this way of, you know, making this very 18 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:23.079 obviously hilarious but underlying, underlying the point that maybe there's actually not a shortage, 19 00:01:23.079 --> 00:01:26.400 people just don't want to work in the industry, which I thought was 20 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:32.879 something worth jumping on the podcast and talk about our reactions to and kind of 21 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:37.079 comparing at what we've heard from our guests. So, Nick, what do 22 00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:40.879 you think? Is there actually a driver shortage? Well, I have to 23 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:44.840 like you say, this is well first, this is nick with the road 24 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:51.359 forward podcast. Glad to be back on here. Thanks for jumping on flint 25 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:55.680 with me and introducing us. I don't know. I don't know the if 26 00:01:55.680 --> 00:02:01.959 there is. I think we heard from from several operators that the driver shortage 27 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:07.159 maybe more of an exodus, as it were, just because of some of 28 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:12.280 the conditions. I remember in particular that Dominic Caffello, when I spoke with 29 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:17.199 him, mentioned a lot about how some of the the requirements of the drivers 30 00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:24.639 have increased and if they haven't seen the the corresponding increase and incentives and pay, 31 00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:30.879 then they've they've left because it's just not it's not a great job anymore 32 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:35.960 like it once was. I think I remember particularly he mentioned this was a 33 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:40.520 well respected job, this was an honest living. You know, it could 34 00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:45.039 feed a family of for those type things. And you know, if we're 35 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:50.280 not creating a professional job like it was in years past, then then what's 36 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:54.599 the reason stick around, moreover, and for not doing that wall or demanding 37 00:02:54.639 --> 00:03:00.400 more of our drivers? So now now drivers, you know of they they're 38 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:04.960 taking risks out on the road every day. They're getting, you know, 39 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:09.639 the put in the the penitentiary if there's an accident, being held liable, 40 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:14.919 and they always have been. But there's a lot of risk there to take 41 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:20.280 on from a driver perspective. And and if the hours are longer and the 42 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:25.159 works harder and more detailed, more demanding with some of the requirements that you 43 00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:30.000 have to have, and you're getting paid less, you're getting you're not getting 44 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:37.000 paid to sit in the truck, then why are you when, and I 45 00:03:37.039 --> 00:03:39.680 think you know, we also heard from from Wayne and as seen, a 46 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:45.080 logistics who said we got to stop the the the duel time problem. Right 47 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:50.120 this idea that we show up to a shipper ready to pick up a load 48 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:53.240 within weight. Six, seven, eight hours, whatever the number is. 49 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:57.800 That amount of time oftentimes just unpaid to the driver, right, like we're 50 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:00.879 just sitting here twiddling our thumbs waiting on some guide, you know, to 51 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:05.080 load us, which is like completely absurd. I mean, look, I'm 52 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:10.960 a professional. If I spent eight hours of my work week sitting around waiting 53 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:14.439 on somebody, I would be furious, right. I no way I'm going 54 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:19.959 to continue the career path that I'm on if my time is valued at that 55 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:26.040 rate, which is essentially free. Right. And and to your point, 56 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:29.040 you're taking all kinds of risk on the road. This is a seventy hour 57 00:04:29.240 --> 00:04:32.120 week job. There's a lot of expectations. You know, I think it 58 00:04:32.199 --> 00:04:38.480 used to be like the old in the old days, like let's call it 59 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:43.639 the S S, there was a certain amount of freedom to being a truck 60 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:47.839 driver, right, like you kind of built your own schedule, you built 61 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:50.079 your own route, you hold the loads that you wanted to load, at 62 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:54.920 least to some extent, and that is no longer the case. Like you 63 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:58.519 don't have the freedom that you used to have. You have all of the 64 00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:02.600 regulations, you have all of the unpaid waiting time, you kind of have 65 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:06.040 like all the bad things and none of the good things. And so I 66 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:12.319 think an interesting question is like this problem, I think, extends beyond the 67 00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:16.120 carrier. It's more of a systematic industry wide problem. We've heard it time 68 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:19.319 and time and get on the show. So how do we, I mean 69 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:24.519 how do we fix this problem in the industry? Because if we don't have 70 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:28.319 trucks, like, let's face it, I mean I can't get right now 71 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:31.920 my daughter's lactose in tolerant. We can't get lactose free milk. It's not 72 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:34.519 on the shelves, it's not there. Well that night. So that's a 73 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:40.759 that's a really specific example lactose free milk. I'm reminded of what Keith Sable 74 00:05:40.839 --> 00:05:46.399 told me about something that's a lot, a lot more of a basic commodity, 75 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:53.040 steel. And try to haul, you know, steal from Birmingham to 76 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:58.720 to Atlanta Their Montgomery, very very short trip, but try to try to 77 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:02.720 put it on the rail and and takes weeks to get there, takes weeks 78 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:08.000 to get it invoice and back around. If you can even, you know, 79 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:11.399 add in the cost to load it and unload it by all the the 80 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:15.920 special requirements. It takes to rail something. So trucks are absolutely valuable. 81 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:21.240 Lactose free milk, certainly as a staple and in our modern consumer society. 82 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:26.240 But you know, without steel we don't have a country, you know. 83 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:29.720 Yeah, I mean Gush, your grocery store shelves are bare. You can't 84 00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:32.839 it's almost like something out of an iron ran novel, right, like everybody 85 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:36.680 that can produce starts leaving the market and you can't get anything you need. 86 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:41.800 It's I mean it sounds absurd, right, but if we don't fix this 87 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:46.560 systematic problem in the industry, this will only get worse. I don't know 88 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:48.600 precovid how many times I went to the store and I couldn't get what I 89 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:55.279 needed. Now, postcovid, it's like constant right, it's like, I 90 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:59.480 mean you're just constantly challenge with these supply chain issues, both personally and in 91 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:02.160 business. Right, you can't get parts, you can't get anything you need 92 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:06.120 through the supply chain, and I think John Stanley on one of our first 93 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:10.720 episodes talk a little bit about this how there's kind of this race to the 94 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:14.399 bottom for trucking companies. Right. So you have all these small carriers out 95 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:17.600 there, your typical small business owner, right, your typical entrepreneur out hustling 96 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:23.480 building a business, very focused on revenue, very focused on growing the team, 97 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:27.399 getting the resources that they need to be successful. Sometimes, like the 98 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:31.759 bigger safety kind of stuff falls to the wayside, which is actually, you 99 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:34.920 know, a cost area and is very important to folks on the business were. 100 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:38.879 Then your big carriers that have all those resources, that have all that 101 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:42.319 safety, that have all that overhead, need to charge more for their for 102 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:45.399 their freight, right. They need a higher rate, and so you always 103 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:48.600 have these like small guys undercutting these big guys. But then eventually the small 104 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:51.399 guy goes out of business because he has one accident. He didn't focus on 105 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:56.959 safety right, and there's they're kind of feels like there's this revolving door. 106 00:07:56.959 --> 00:08:01.160 And so John's point was like there almost needs to be a baseline in the 107 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:05.560 market, like you kind of have to meet some basic criteria to operate in 108 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.680 the market, and I don't know if that's something government should do or government 109 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:13.680 shouldn't do, but I don't know that. That was an interesting observation from 110 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:18.160 John. Just knowing you as long as I have, I'd almost say you're 111 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:22.560 advocating for them regulation for which is a turn on your normal almost feel. 112 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:28.399 Yeah, I don't know that I am advocating for government regulation. I'm advocating 113 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:33.240 for something to give any industry. I mean, look, drivers are like 114 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:37.399 our most important resource in transportation. Right you can have all the trucks in 115 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.120 the world, you can have all the trailers. Fuels pretty expensive right now, 116 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:43.960 but like, if there's nobody to drive the truck, we're not going 117 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:48.440 to get any freight moved. Sure, sure, sure, well, and 118 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:52.440 certainly regulation is not the only answer. I think that that, you know, 119 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:58.120 we be the first ones to advocate for technology as well that can reduce 120 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:05.159 some of the bird and of being able to fulfill these these needs, whether 121 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:11.600 it be safety, whether it be operations, management, sales. There's there's 122 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:16.039 an APP for that. And you know, one benefit of, I think, 123 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:22.440 the I guess, post iphone era is that there really is a schmorbish 124 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:26.440 board of offerings out there that are software as a service, which I know 125 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:31.840 is a four letter word, but it it can benefit business in a low 126 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:37.679 cost ways that they can help address some of these issues. Now there's always 127 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:41.600 the the human aspect behind that, and so it's it's really change management. 128 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:46.360 I'd say once you find your software, you have to implement it, you 129 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:48.679 got to get your team on board with it, and that's where I think, 130 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:52.440 if it's not done the right way, a lot of these drivers just 131 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.120 feel like, Oh, this is one more thing, one more thing I 132 00:09:56.159 --> 00:10:00.200 have to do. I already do all everything, you know I do every 133 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:03.399 day. I've got to get up and get these these loads delivered. Everything's 134 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:05.799 involved with that. I'm sitting around on the truck. I got weight eight 135 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:09.639 hours, get the truck unloaded. No, because we're lined up here now, 136 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:13.480 going to do one more thing after I'd done all my eld's, after 137 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:16.919 I've done all of my, you know, inspections, you know safety checks, 138 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:20.399 everything else I have to do. You're asking me to do this, 139 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:28.360 this one more technology, and I think that's where really any industry experiences push 140 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.679 back or, you know, it's the straw that broke the camels back. 141 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:37.519 But if I think if operators can can harness some of these technologies which are 142 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:43.200 there there in the market place now, it's not anything that's that's yet to 143 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:48.799 be invented. We've got, you know, AI capabilities that can look at 144 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:54.360 at video. We've got smart Lane Monitoring, so that we're not. We're 145 00:10:54.399 --> 00:11:01.879 not careening in anybody or or smart systems for I think I think they'll nick 146 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:03.440 like a let me look, I just want to interject, like I think 147 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:09.720 too often drivers look at technology as if it is, like you said, 148 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:15.240 one more thing to do, or it's a it's a negative aspect. And 149 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:20.039 and we've heard several times on the show that like investing in safety and positioning 150 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:26.360 it correctly with your drivers could actually be a retention tool, right, like 151 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:31.799 my company invests in giving me the tools that I need to be successful, 152 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:37.559 to get me home safe at night. It doesn't have to be approached. 153 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:39.799 You know, and I think part of this is from the eld mandate, 154 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:43.399 like all of a sudden the federal government like, let's go back to federal 155 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:46.320 government again, said, by the way, now you're going to start doing 156 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:50.120 this, and everybody, from the carrier to the shipper to the driver, 157 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:52.360 was like, well, this sucks, right, and I think that that 158 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:58.879 stigma has kind of stuck around with technology, when maybe that shouldn't be the 159 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:03.559 case. Right, and then we could actually use this, these these tools 160 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:07.799 to improve our business, to make our drivers lives easier, to empower our 161 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:11.200 drivers to own more of their workflow to actually, at the end of the 162 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:15.559 day, have more freedom, which I think is is kind of a cool 163 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:22.720 idea. Right if if all of a sudden drivers felt like there was more 164 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:26.200 of the job than just checking down the boxes and going from point a to 165 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:31.360 point being waiting. And obviously technology doesn't do that itself. It's one tool. 166 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:33.799 Hammer is great if you never swing it, it never drives a nail. 167 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:37.960 Right. Sure, sure, sure, yeah, I agree with you. 168 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:45.960 It seems this if the the kind of broad regulation of something mandating anything, 169 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:48.279 takes the fun out of it. So certainly, you know, just 170 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:54.000 saying hey, go from paper to a computers was a difficult transition. I 171 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.279 think I've heard that several times, you know, from some of these older, 172 00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:00.200 older operators. Now that we've gotten used to it. I don't know 173 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.039 if we've gotten used to it, though. You know, I think probably 174 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:07.480 more what happened is the technology got better and by the time it got better, 175 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:11.720 and now we've gotten we've been easier for us to work with and so 176 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:15.240 we don't have to go through all of the heart ache that we had to 177 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:20.480 the first go around when the eld's that we were using word glorified. You 178 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:26.200 know words than dractors. Yeah, yeah, they weren't smart at all, 179 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:33.000 they weren't intuitive and you took three clicks to do anything. So so yeah, 180 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:37.000 definitely, definitely mandates. It's a blunt it's a blunt tool. I 181 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.080 think it can get done what you what you want, but it definitely has 182 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:46.120 some collateral damage. But I see times I'm really curious. So, like 183 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:50.279 Nick, where do you think the actual problem is in the industry? Because 184 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:52.320 this is something I've really struggle with. Right we're all dealing with this retention 185 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:58.919 problem. There's all this new technology on the horizon, yet at the same 186 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:03.960 time it feels like it feels like that all the tools and the resources are 187 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:09.799 out there, but the feeling in the industry is that is getting harder and 188 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:15.200 harder and harder. So, like, where is the problem any industry? 189 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.360 Well, I think that that we really need to take a look at some 190 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.759 of our costs breakdown, you know, in shipping. I think that when 191 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:28.759 you look at read some recent numbers, something like when we look at what 192 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:31.879 are the costs that go into a a transporter, thirty nine percent of it's 193 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:37.519 in fuel and twenty four percent of its in drivers. As with the top 194 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:43.360 two costs of to run and to run an operating company. And you know, 195 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.039 fuel, obviously it goes up, it goes down, we have taxes 196 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:50.759 associated with it, but we all kind of see it as a necessary evil 197 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:54.600 and I think because of the variability there, you know, some of the 198 00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:03.279 drivers gotten squeezed, even though it's a mean, honestly more more important than 199 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:05.759 the fuel in a lot of cases. I mean, this is a human 200 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:09.159 business. It's humans moving things from point a to point B with our technology. 201 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:13.480 So hopefully, you know, fuel costs will go down, whether it 202 00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:16.960 be through commodities or whether we have, you know, new technologies that don't 203 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:22.360 rely on fuels. But I think you we can't ever go wrong and investing 204 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:26.519 in the driver if the core, the core of the business is somebody, 205 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:30.360 somebody has to take it from point a to point B, and so I 206 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:35.000 think investing in them in terms of a good job to work work in, 207 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:39.559 investing in them in terms of the tools that they have at their I mean, 208 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:41.519 nick, isn't this, I mean I'm Serta interrupt you, but isn't 209 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:45.679 this a become a competitive problem? Right, because it's easy to say, 210 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:50.679 let's invest in our drivers, but if everybody doesn't invest in our drivers. 211 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:54.159 Let mean, let's let's assume everybody's buying fuel. Right, trucks get, 212 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:56.600 I don't know, for to eight miles a gallon. Everybody's going to get 213 00:15:56.679 --> 00:16:00.240 roughly the same, right, we're all kind of on the same level playing 214 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:06.279 field. Like the driver expenses a big variable. And and if I is 215 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:07.519 a carrier, so okay, I'm going to I'm going to double my driver 216 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:11.360 pay today. That then has to be reflected in my rates to say to 217 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.360 stay profitable. But if you, on the other hand, say, well, 218 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.159 he just doubled his pay for drivers, I'm only going to, you 219 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:21.399 know, I'm going to. I'm not going to increase my or be increasy 220 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:23.679 by ten percent. All of a sudden you come and compete with me. 221 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:27.720 Your rates are way cheaper, right, even though my retention is better, 222 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:33.360 my safety's probably better, are I probably have higher caliber drivers. Like this 223 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:38.399 creates, this creates a competitive issue in the market. Like is maybe maybe 224 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:42.799 is the is the problem actually at the shipper level? Right, like this 225 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:48.200 is such a competitive business and you know trucking industry, maybe part of the 226 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:52.639 issues that the ship are like we are the shippers, requiring us to have 227 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:59.080 all this dwell time. The shipper is not choosing the safest carrier, not 228 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:03.039 choosing the carrier who takes the best care of their drivers. Maybe it's the 229 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:07.799 broker right. Maybe a broker shipper is interchangeable. Like where? Where is 230 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:11.839 the problem? Is it that every every carrier has to band together and do 231 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.680 exactly the same thing in the entire rate structure has to come up, or 232 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:18.000 is it shippers are going to have to get better at choosing who they work 233 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:23.640 with based on factors other than financial factors? Sure, I think, I 234 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:29.200 think probably both would be were all honest with you. The the operators I've 235 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:33.759 spoken with that have been successful, that are growing, those are the ones 236 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:37.839 that they're vertically integrated. There, you know, a shipper and and a 237 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:41.920 transporter, and so they can mitigate some of these these aspects that you're talking 238 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:47.440 about. They can kind of give themselves the choice routes and they can be 239 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:52.880 more strategic about how things are loaded and unloaded and they can remove some of 240 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:59.640 those obstacles. Or that the transporters that have really strong relationship, strong contacts 241 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:04.839 with the the shippers and you know, they're they're able to maybe charge a 242 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:08.960 little bit more so that they can can operate better. But ultimately the shippers 243 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:14.880 not looking for the lowest common denominator because they have certain needs that are being 244 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:19.359 met by that transporter. And so they found a competitive niche. They found 245 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:23.160 a competitive niche. Right, a secret sauce. Why is? Why is? 246 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:27.079 You know, big Mac and a whopper. You know why they we 247 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:30.680 put them side by side. You know, some people like the big maps 248 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:34.160 has got the secret sauce on their right. It's not just price. I 249 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:37.400 mean, if I just want to Burger for a price, I guess there 250 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:41.119 is a customer for that. But you know, most of us pick our 251 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:45.039 favorites because we like we like that Nich. We like what we like. 252 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:48.839 Right, right, but yeah, I and and I hear you. I 253 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:52.880 agree. And there's all comes back to business strategy. Right. How do 254 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:57.400 you want to position the market? Do you want to be the higher cost, 255 00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:03.119 High Service type provider? Do you want to be the low cost, 256 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:06.960 low service provider? Here's the thing. You probably can't be both. Right, 257 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:11.000 I can't. Like I see some people advertise we're the high service, 258 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:14.720 low cost. You know, it's like, I don't know how that's going 259 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:17.720 to be very successful for very long, right, it might work for a 260 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:22.400 little while and then you're probably going to be lying on one of those two 261 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:26.839 points at the end of the day. So yeah, finding a niche. 262 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:29.039 I mean it, it comes back. It makes me think, like, 263 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:33.440 is trucking really a commodity business? is moving stuff from Point A to point 264 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:36.119 b? I can do it, you can do it, jim down the 265 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:38.880 street can do it, we can all do it. Like how how do 266 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.240 you think about differentiating yourself in the market? I think some companies have been 267 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:47.160 really good at this. Like if you look at food deliveries, like a 268 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:52.960 really good example, score, service actually matters, and probably commodities, like 269 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:56.839 think about agricultural feed, like it's not there on time, my animals go 270 00:19:56.920 --> 00:20:00.680 hungry. Milk might be like another interesting like there are. There are certain 271 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:04.920 segments of the market, I think, that lend themselves really well to needing 272 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:11.319 a higher cost, higher service provider. But perhaps in the general of right 273 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:14.160 world, a drive in as a drive V and a flat bed as a 274 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:18.839 flat bed to some extent right. And you kind of commoditize your service if 275 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:22.440 you don't find a niche. Sure, and I think that was a great 276 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:30.279 point that dominic brought up as well. Was that regulations are sort of broadly 277 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:34.480 uniformly a pride applied to everybody who has a doot number and has a you 278 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:40.559 know, a box fan or or a truck. But but ultimately it's not 279 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:45.319 it's not bespoken enough to be able to massage these different circumstances. You're right. 280 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:51.359 I mean a drive vans business is much different from agricultural, you know, 281 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:55.440 commodities. They're just they're apples and oranges and also field right. That 282 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:57.000 would be another example. Yeah, so, so nick, and maybe this 283 00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:02.000 is where you're going. But has the federal government set us up for disaster 284 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:06.480 with all these regulations that apply to everybody evenly? Is that a good thing 285 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:08.240 or a bad thing? Do we need less regulation? Do we need more 286 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:14.920 regulation? I think I can firmly say the federal government has set us up 287 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:19.559 for disaster. But I'm made more than one way or more than one way. 288 00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:25.880 Yes, we are headed down the wrong path here and I hope, 289 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:29.559 I hope, Mr Biden, you are listening to this today when I say 290 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:37.160 we need reform today in trucking. That's my piece. I've said it makes 291 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:42.680 going to start chanting and rioting and waving and flag near the moment. That's 292 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:45.720 funny, right. Yeah, look, I don't know what gives right. 293 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:49.640 I mean I really struggle to put my finger on exactly where the where the 294 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:53.440 overall big problem is in the industry. I think a lot of it lies 295 00:21:53.480 --> 00:22:00.359 of the shipper. I think too many times carriers don't differentiate themselves and it 296 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:03.519 becomes a race to the bottom. Ultimately, if this industry is going to 297 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:07.880 be let's face it, stuff is going to continue to move back and forth 298 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:11.039 across the country because we're all going to keep buying stuff. Right, the 299 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:15.200 people here are the key to success. If you're a carrier and you're not 300 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:19.000 focused on your people and how you're going to take care of them and and 301 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:26.680 building the niche that allows me to retain, recruit and have good people to 302 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:30.359 move stuff from point a to point be like, you're setting your self up 303 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:33.759 for failure. I think you brought up the oil field and that's a great 304 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:38.640 Seguay into, you know where where they've always focused on people, I think 305 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:42.759 is in that industry, you know, because your people are the ones who 306 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:48.039 are interacting with your customers more than you and so if you are going to 307 00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:52.680 differentiate yourself with your with your shippers with your customers. Investing in your people, 308 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:57.799 investing in your drivers and them represent your brand in the best way possible 309 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:00.559 is really how you're going to do it. I call it the race to 310 00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:04.440 the top. It's how do we how do we make this the most professional 311 00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:08.039 outfit that we can? You can go out, you can beat the streets 312 00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:12.440 and you can market some more, but what speaks more volumes than showing up 313 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:17.400 with a suit in a briefcase is when your your truck show up on time 314 00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:22.920 and and things are done properly and you're holding your shippers to task, saying, 315 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:25.599 Hey, I've got the day to here now, I want to talk 316 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:29.279 to you about this, because this is what we need to conduct business in 317 00:23:29.319 --> 00:23:33.079 a more streamline manner. That's where you're going to represent your brand well and 318 00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:37.880 ultimately you're going to make a name for the company and win more business in 319 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:41.039 the marketplace. And this is and this is like the southwest model right, 320 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.200 southwest airlines, if you look back in history, they made the decision early 321 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:49.799 on, strategically, to put their employees first. Or like is a business 322 00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:52.319 right. You can prioritize different things. You's I'm going to you know, 323 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:56.319 my shareowners are number one, my customers are number one, my you know, 324 00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:00.680 vendors are number one whatever. In Southwest Day they said we're going to 325 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:04.240 make our employees number one. There are number one concern. Everything else's secondary 326 00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:08.880 to that. And this the strategy behind that was it's not we don't want 327 00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:12.200 to take care of our customers, it's if we take care of our employees, 328 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:17.799 our employees will take care of our customers right, and we will then 329 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:22.200 create more return for shareholders because our customers are happy and they continue to come 330 00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:26.279 back and our employees are happy and they retain right. Like this is the 331 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:30.839 southwest modeling and we all know how this win. Right, they became phenomenally 332 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:37.759 successful and in a lot of ways stamped the traditional airlines who had kind of 333 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.240 approached this as hey shareholders, first we're going to cancel flights when you're awful. 334 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:45.240 We're going to take an inch out from between every seat, make literally 335 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:49.319 every passenger completely miserable, but it means we can get one more extra row 336 00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:53.200 on the flight. Right. So you know, this is just it all 337 00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:56.759 comes back to strategy. Like what do you value? What's your niche? 338 00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:00.880 How are you going to structure and run your business to align with that strategy. 339 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:04.880 I think. I think it. It doesn't have to be something you 340 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:08.960 really beat, beat yourself over the head with flint. I know you know. 341 00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:11.759 You don't have to have an Ivy League, this is school degree, 342 00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:15.559 to come up with the best strategy if you just believe in what you do 343 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:22.559 and you believe that you know this is the right route and it speaks volumes 344 00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:26.839 to your employees, your customers. If you just say sort of earnestly, 345 00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:30.480 you know, we value this more than any thing else, and you make 346 00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:34.079 her own it and that's your strategy, you're going to do it better than 347 00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:37.519 other people, because other people they may not value that above other, other, 348 00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:41.960 other things and they may just have it as a check on their their 349 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.319 box. Check and you'll be like a magna right, he'll attract people that 350 00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:52.359 agree with your philosophy. Correct, Yep, it's standing for something. I 351 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:57.799 think too often in business people are given all sorts of advice that you know, 352 00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:00.319 you need to do this, you need to do this, this, 353 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.680 add on, add on, add on, and you there's there's no there's 354 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:06.359 no core value. It all comes back to that. You know what do 355 00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:10.880 you believe in this as a company and as the owner as the operator, 356 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:15.240 that it's actually projecting that on your company. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. 357 00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:17.160 Well, nick, this has been a lot of fun. This was 358 00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:22.559 kind of a cool recap. I enjoyed the spirited discussion here about how to 359 00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:26.680 improve the industry because I think we got to think about it right like everybody 360 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:30.440 that's a member of this industry like, we've got to keep moving forward. 361 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:36.480 So thanks for doing this for sure, and it changes daytoday. I think 362 00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:40.440 that our problems now hopefully will be a thing of the past as we move 363 00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:45.440 down the road forward. But but ultimately it's good to talk about it and 364 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:51.200 it's good to recap everything that that that I've said here today really has been. 365 00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:53.839 Think opinions of those I've talked with as well, much smarter men than 366 00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:59.559 me, much more absolute. Well, Hey, if you if you've enjoyed 367 00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:03.599 it, if you agree or disagree, shoots a text message at a six 368 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:07.720 hundred and six, four two, five, three eight zero. Would love 369 00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:11.519 to hear your comments and we even have some swag that we are dying to 370 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:18.039 give away. So send your address if you have not subscribed yet the road 371 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:23.920 forward podcastcom typing your email addresser will send you some some cool content via email. 372 00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:29.119 Go ahead and subscribe wherever you're listening to your podcast. This has been 373 00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:30.799 a lot of fun. We're thrilled that you spend a few minutes with us 374 00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:38.359 today, and remember to keep your eyes on your road forward. If you 375 00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:42.119 manage a truck fleet, you go to bed every night driving that three am 376 00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:45.799 phone call, because that call is never a good one. Either your drivers 377 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:48.640 tell you they have a flat tire and the shipment's delayed, or they were 378 00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:52.480 shut down and take it it at the way station. If the thought of 379 00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:55.720 those middle of the night calls keeps you up at all hours, truck spy 380 00:27:55.839 --> 00:28:00.640 can help trucks by gives managers total visibility into what's happening on the road. 381 00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:03.400 Companies use our hardware to make sure their fleets are productive and safe, so 382 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:07.400 that managers like you can see in real time where their trucks are and what 383 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:11.440 they're doing. More trucks make it on time and without issues or losses, 384 00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:17.880 helping you rest easy. Learn more at trucks by DOT IO. You've been 385 00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:21.599 listening to the road forward, the show for trucking industry that's like you. 386 00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:26.200 If you want to hear from other business owners who've seen trends come and go, 387 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:30.279 all the while building lasting businesses that keep America running. They make sure 388 00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:33.720 you're subscribed to catch more episodes. To easily find the show on your favorite 389 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:37.000 podcast player, go to the road forward podcastcom. Until next time, keep 390 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:38.640 your eyes on the road forward.