Here's what brokers and carriers are doing wrong

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:12.199 M welcome back to the road forward, a podcast for trucking industry leaders brought 2 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:16.320 to you by truck spy, the all in one fleet management platform built to 3 00:00:16.399 --> 00:00:21.039 empower your drivers to be productive, compliant and safe. My name is Alex 4 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:24.480 and today on the podcast we got Eric Larson. He is a freight broker 5 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:29.039 who is a WHO used to be a land star agent and he's a million 6 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:32.079 dollar agent, which I think means something in landstar terms. But, more 7 00:00:32.119 --> 00:00:36.520 importantly, he's been a freight broker for fourteen years and he has some really 8 00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:42.880 strong opinions on where the industry is Um and what both carriers and brokers are 9 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:45.119 doing wrong. So let's get started. Eric, how are you doing today? 10 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:47.000 Good, good, thanks for having on. So I used to be 11 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:49.520 a million dollar agent with landstar. Now I'm on my own doing my own 12 00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:51.439 brokerage for the last twelve years. So I just want to make sure we 13 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:53.320 correct that. Just you know. You know, if I don't catch any 14 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:56.880 hate, fair, fair enough. But Um, but we we've talked about 15 00:00:56.920 --> 00:01:02.200 this before and it seems like there's an issue right that both carriers and brokers 16 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:07.879 are doing or not doing their job. Brokers seem to be overstepping, especially 17 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:14.719 with this recent UM C H Robinson lawsuit, and carriers don't know their responsibilities 18 00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:18.000 and so they're not doing enough work right. So can you can you elaborate 19 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:21.560 on that a little bit more? Obviously, over the years that the freight 20 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:25.519 broker has has become different things, like what your job as a freight broker 21 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:27.599 is to be that middleman, that be that middle person. Uh, a 22 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:32.719 freight broker never takes possession of the freight. It is a freight fowarder, 23 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:36.040 can a carrier, can a shipper, receiver, but a freight broker never 24 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:40.120 takes possession of the freight. So by never taking possession of the freight, 25 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:42.719 you there are certain criterion things that you, as a freight broker, should 26 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:49.000 be very careful not to do. And over the years nobody's really freight brokers 27 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:53.280 have more and more taken that role. And as a freight broker you're not 28 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:57.359 allowed to take a supervisory role into somebody else's company. Um, it makes 29 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:02.560 you a supervisory advisor role. Like there's obviously definitions and like what what? 30 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:07.000 What actions or what behaviors would consider a supervisory so there's been a couple of 31 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:10.199 court cases and the C robins seems to be the main one to pay because 32 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:14.199 you know at that point they have a lot of money. But examples that. 33 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:17.599 Um, there was a case where C H Robinson called the driver directly 34 00:02:17.639 --> 00:02:23.319 and was interacting with the driver in regards to taking temperatures on a refrigerated load 35 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:24.919 and saying, Hey, you have to call us every four hours and let 36 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:29.879 us know the temperatures and so on and so on. Well, eventually there 37 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:34.879 was a case that there was a wreck and the driver basically said Hey, 38 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:38.199 because of the all of this criteria that they put on me, I felt 39 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:44.039 pressured and things like this. So the courts basically said look, when you 40 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:46.000 take a supervisory role in regards to, let's say, talking to a driver, 41 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:51.400 check calls, speaking directly with them, making decisions, you and the 42 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:54.599 driver are now making decisions rather than going through the carrier. You become a 43 00:02:54.639 --> 00:03:00.120 partnering agent and that Partnering Agent Puts you in a category that you are are 44 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:05.879 now direct line of lawsuit. So if something were to happen, your brokers 45 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:08.319 like to place themselves into that direct line of lawsuit. Well, with the 46 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:12.439 last case that just happened, which would be C H Robinson, verse Miller 47 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:16.840 Um. These are now becoming what is known in the trucking industry as nuclear 48 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:23.319 verdicts, and nuclear verdicts means mega money. Right. It's no longer I 49 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:27.080 think it's a the definition, I think the technical definitely is like ten million 50 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:30.280 dollars or more awarded settlement or something like that. Right, that's a nuclear 51 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:37.599 verdicts. So it's it's now brokers are getting involved in nuclear verdicts. So 52 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:40.960 it's one of those things that wasn't it's always happened and it's always been there, 53 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:46.599 but now you have large sums of money that are getting sued for and 54 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:49.360 it went to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court we're supposed to hear it, 55 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:52.199 and the Ninth Center Court kicked you know, it got kicked back down 56 00:03:52.199 --> 00:03:54.319 to them in the Supreme Court. You said they wouldn't hear it, but 57 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:59.280 it's starting to side a precedent in regards to that. So as a freight 58 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:01.879 broker, your job is, like I said, is to be that middle 59 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:04.800 person. You know if, if you're looking, you're looking to give your 60 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:10.439 your customer information based on your knowledge of the industry. Hey, this load 61 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:14.319 should be approximately here to here. One thousand to two thousand dollars, but 62 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:16.160 let me go ahead and reach out to some of my network drivers or some 63 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:19.360 of my drivers that I know or carriers that I know and things like that, 64 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:23.879 and let me see where they're at with it. And then you come 65 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:27.519 back. You should be getting a price from that carrier and then coming back 66 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:30.360 to the customer and saying, well, here's the price, here's what we 67 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:32.600 can move it for, let's say. So if if it was one thousand 68 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:35.120 to two thousand, you would go to your carrier and say, you know 69 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:40.319 what, can you do this for right, and they should give you a 70 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:45.360 price back and then you, let's say it's and you might go to your 71 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:47.439 customer and say, okay, the price is eighteen hundred or let's just I'm 72 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:51.639 using simple numbers. But it's not your job to tell the shipper this will 73 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:58.639 cost this or the carrier this will I'm only paying this. Again, this 74 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:02.279 is in my sin but it's not technically. You know, a lot of 75 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:05.759 brokers go overstretched there, in my opinion. So to kind of sum that 76 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:15.120 up, brokers, they are overstepping right there. They're overstepping by telling Um, 77 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:19.480 by like not correctly communicating to the customers their responsibilities, but also they're 78 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:26.079 overstepping by talking to drivers directly, and so that in turn opens them up 79 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:30.000 to the lawsuits. But you're saying that carriers, because the brokers started to 80 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:34.959 slowly overstep, the carriers kind of started to backtrack, and now what carriers 81 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:39.240 are doing is they're just calling brokers and asking, Hey, how much are 82 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:42.319 you paying on this? And that's a problem for a carrier. Correct. 83 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:44.680 Yeah, and I think a lot of that too is the spot markets with 84 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:46.399 the load boards where I'll put you can I can post my price. So 85 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:50.040 if I've already post my price, I've already set that established that mentally in 86 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:54.480 your head, right in your head now, because that's what he's looking to 87 00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:57.839 paying, rather than say, okay, the loads going from here to here, 88 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:00.000 calling me up and saying, you know, can you tell me about 89 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:01.800 the log sure needs straps, it needs this, it needs tarp, whatever, 90 00:06:01.879 --> 00:06:04.759 you know, giving you all the pertinent information for you to then say, 91 00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:11.279 okay, according to this, I'm going to be eight. You know, 92 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:14.079 you know what I mean because, and I try to explain this the 93 00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:17.160 best way in regards to any so we can understand this, is if a 94 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:19.959 plumber were to come to your house because your toilets broke or you've got to 95 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:24.079 lead on a leak underneath your tub. He's gonna walk in, he's gonna 96 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:27.040 say, show me the bathroom and he's gonna go through the bathroom, he's 97 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:29.800 gonna take a look, he's gonna take whatever he's gonna do and he's gonna 98 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:32.399 come out and he's gonna say, okay, Um, it looks like it's 99 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:38.120 gonna be about five hours. I'm a d twenty five an hour. That's 100 00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:41.519 my price. I never, he never comes out of that bathroom and says, 101 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:44.319 well, I took a look. Um, can I happen to know 102 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:46.560 right now what you have in your bank account and how many credit cards you 103 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:49.319 have and the and the you know, where are you an available credit for 104 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:53.120 your credit card? They don't do that, right. You, you, 105 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:56.399 the customer, you, the homeowner, asks the plumber what do you charge? 106 00:06:56.439 --> 00:06:59.079 And the customer gives you, the plumber gives you a price. He 107 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:01.759 doesn't say, well, how much can you afford to spend? Right the 108 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:05.480 plumber does not say that, Um, and that's that's a really big distinction. 109 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:09.560 And I know just a personal story, it's like I know when I 110 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:11.959 started and I, you know, I was on the load board and doing 111 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.639 that whole thing, trying to book loads. I all like there was a 112 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:17.600 thing in my head where I was like, I will not call a broker 113 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:23.480 if they do not post a price right, and so that's incorrect. Don't 114 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:26.879 do that. You as a motor carrier, you need to know, hey, 115 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:29.879 it costs me two dollars a mile to move my truck. So if 116 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:31.720 I want to shoot for a ten percent profit, that means I cannot haul 117 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:34.920 a single thing under two twenties. And so then you want to work your 118 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:40.279 numbers out so that you know your own numbers. Now, so you shouldn't 119 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:44.399 care what the broker's actually charged the customer. You need to know your numbers 120 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:46.759 because, you know, like any great plumber, a plumber goes like, 121 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:48.600 Hey, I went through school or whatever the case may be. My truck 122 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:51.680 gets ten, fifteen miles a gallon. I take like a job site usually 123 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:57.079 takes this long, like it's it's very common that, like all businesses, 124 00:07:57.319 --> 00:08:00.240 have a price point up front and then the customer can takeular ly bit. 125 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.040 But trucking seems to be a little bit different. That is it. That 126 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.240 is a very interesting distinction. So if you're a carrier, pay attention because 127 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:07.639 it's important because and I think one of the things that you need to do 128 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:11.519 is and that what's what's key for a carrier to know because, like I 129 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:15.319 said, and I've explained it, and just somebody knows, I'm a CDL 130 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:18.360 holder. I used to have a carrier, I have my brokerage. So 131 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:22.759 I've been an owner operator when I my job as a carrier and it's sometimes 132 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:26.959 it's I can do it faster than other people as you gain experiences. Look, 133 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:28.920 know how much I need to make, just like you said. Okay, 134 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.960 so I need to be to twenty. Is this load going from UH 135 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:35.240 Texas to Wyoming? Because if it's going to Wyoming, I'm not gonna be 136 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:37.879 able to get a load. Unless I did had three fifty miles to Denver 137 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:41.600 or whatever. You know what I'm saying. So I better calculate a little 138 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:43.600 bit of fuel down to Denver, because I know I can get a little 139 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:46.919 of Denver. Or is it putting me in Atlanta, Georgia, you know 140 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:48.360 what I mean, where I'm not worried about dead heading out of here. 141 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.320 You know what I'm saying. So it's those calculations you have to be able 142 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.799 to do as a business owner to to factor that into that. To Twenty 143 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:01.919 before you give me that price. Right. So at that point you're saying 144 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.120 to twenty, but it's going to Wyoming. So let's take let's say twixt 145 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:09.559 to get me, because that will also get me down to Denver and I 146 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:11.919 know I can get some freight out of Denver. I'm just, you know, 147 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:16.960 obviously throwing stuff out of there, and that's what makes experienced carriers good 148 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:20.039 at what they do. I'll tell you what, when somebody calls me and 149 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.039 says, Um, how much are you paying, and we're going back and 150 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:24.720 forth and they keep saying, well, I don't know what are you paying? 151 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:28.559 What are you paying? I the drivers that the carriers that call me 152 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:33.240 and say here's what I need, are always better carriers. They're always the 153 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:37.360 better carriers. They know how to do their job. I don't have problems 154 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:41.600 with them. Um, the drivers on time. It is amazing the difference. 155 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:45.120 Just when a carrier calls me and says I'M gonna be two seventy, 156 00:09:45.399 --> 00:09:46.879 I do oversize freight. So, just so everybody knows, my numbers might 157 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:50.840 be a little higher than normal. Um, I do I need to seventy 158 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:56.120 five for this load. UH, and Bam. And compared to how much 159 00:09:56.159 --> 00:09:58.440 do you need? How much are you paying? Yeah, and and I 160 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:01.879 like and a couple of things, because I don't I want to. I 161 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:05.000 don't want to forget exactly what you're saying. Um. And so the key 162 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:07.759 thing, though, is for trucking business owners, right, we, like 163 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:13.159 a broker or a customer doesn't expect you to know all of the lane rate 164 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:16.240 data, right. So there's definitely tools out there. So it's like, 165 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:18.759 maybe you don't run a Texas to Wyoming load and you don't know that there's 166 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:22.559 no loads in Wyoming like. That doesn't mean you have to know everything about 167 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.440 every lane in the United States. So first option would be number one, 168 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:31.120 is get familiar with some tools that can give you that data. That's option 169 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:33.759 one. But option two, as a motor carrier, when you start now 170 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:37.480 and you are new and you don't have experience, focus on a lane. 171 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:41.919 That would probably be some good advice. Right, if a customer calls you 172 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:43.960 and says, Hey, I gotta Texas to Wyoming but all you do is 173 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:48.440 a Texas to Illinois, maybe say no to that load, right. Maybe 174 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:50.480 say no because you want to focus on the lanes that you do know, 175 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:54.240 in which in that case, so it's either use the tools or stick to 176 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:58.759 the experience that you have, which is knowing your exact lane. Um. 177 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:01.080 So I just want to throw that in there. That's usually my most experienced 178 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:03.559 people. Is that the ones that call me. No, they give me 179 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:07.240 the price. They don't even ask my price. They don't care about my 180 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:09.720 price right there, just saying, Hey, you got a little going from 181 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:11.440 here to here. Now they're not gonna give me seventeen dollars a mile. 182 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:15.240 If it sho'll only be paying two dollars a mile, let's say. But 183 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:18.759 they're not, and and a lot of times they're they're looking at it as 184 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:20.879 here's my price. It's a realistic price and a lot of times, as 185 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:24.639 a freight broker, what you know, on a spot market quote, I 186 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:28.000 should be going back and saying, okay, let me talk to my customer. 187 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:31.080 Can and it's not Oh hey, you're too high. It should be 188 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:35.960 okay, give me some stuff, some help selling this. How are you 189 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:39.440 empty right now? Um, how far away are you can? Do you 190 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:41.600 have a full clock? Um, I mean what what are we kind of 191 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:43.639 looking at? What time you think you're getting get there? You know? 192 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:46.679 Okay, could be there in an hour. All Right, I'll call you 193 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:48.639 right back. Now I go to my car, my customer, and I 194 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.120 say, okay, let's say you use two thousand dollars. Simple. Now 195 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:54.879 I go to my customer and I say, all right, I've got a 196 00:11:54.879 --> 00:12:00.159 truck Um. He's hundred miles away, he's empty right now. He's out 197 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:03.159 of full clock. He could be here by two. He's a fifty three 198 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:07.399 Ft van Um, you know, food grade van. Whatever his price is 199 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.799 gonna WE'RE gonna in a price to cover. This one is twenty five and 200 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:11.720 I'm just using simple numbers. I might only get it might be twenty two, 201 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:16.960 but I'm just gonna use simple numbers. So now I've got I said. 202 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:18.799 Now I go to the customer. I'm saying, do you wanna? 203 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:20.840 Do you want me to schedule this guy? I need to know as soon 204 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:22.759 as possible because I told him to give me ten minutes. And a lot 205 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:28.759 of times understand that the person in the Shipping Office that I'm talking to is 206 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:31.720 just the transportation manager. He has a boss he has to answer to. 207 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:35.720 Okay, it's not an open checkbook, it's not I can, you know, 208 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:39.159 charge whatever I want. So now he might have to check and say, 209 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:41.840 okay, we got a truck next to you know. He called me 210 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:43.440 back or he sent me an email. He is his schedule it. And 211 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:46.399 then I call the carrier back and I say we're on. Here's the you 212 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:48.679 know, give me your email or blah blah blah. And how do you 213 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:52.120 want me to send this information to the I'm assuming that the driver is also 214 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:58.080 the carrier. I'm not. Okay, just on this situation and if it's 215 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.919 not, I will. I never talk to a driver, but either way, 216 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:03.840 I said, send the paperwork over and we're rocking and rolling. I'm 217 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:09.440 playing that Middle Role. It's not my job to say you're too high, 218 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:13.600 that's too expensive, because that's your price right. So the customer needs to 219 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:16.600 say that correct. So that needs to come from the customer. Correct, 220 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:20.240 correct, and this is the issue where brokers are locking in rates before they 221 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:24.960 even lock in a truck and then they remove that negoing room for negotiation, 222 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:26.960 and so then they end up just finding the cheapest carrier. So in turn 223 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:31.320 they are saving the customers some money. But then when the service isn't there 224 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.840 or you got trucks or you know, whether it's the Colorado accident or you 225 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:39.639 know where guy's got no training and their brakes overheated, and so you're seeing 226 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.799 a lot of these safety issues now or a lot of these accidents and nuclear 227 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:46.840 lawsuits are nuclear verdicts, because at the end of the day, brokers are 228 00:13:48.039 --> 00:13:52.559 just undercutting the price as much as possible and then just finding the cheapest carrier 229 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:56.559 possible. And the customer in that, in that scenario that you painted out, 230 00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:58.879 the customer could certainly say, Hey, this doesn't need to be picked 231 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:01.600 right now. I want to find a cheaper rate, so I will give 232 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:05.399 you forty eight hours to find a truck. Right, so the customer can 233 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:09.039 then negotiate through you. Um. But but again, that could be blamed 234 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.799 a little bit on the customer, right. They could say like Hey, 235 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:16.000 I'm paying find a truck for it, and the customer might come in and 236 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.879 say, look, we've budgeted to move this Um, that's what we have 237 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.919 in our budget, so I need to stay a close to as possible or 238 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:28.039 I'm losing money. So because I can't go back to my customer and ask 239 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.960 for more money because there's no reason. Right. So a lot of times, 240 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:37.480 because when and so everybody knows there's no empty checkbook. Every shipper manufacturer 241 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:43.240 is competing against other manufacturers, right. So one of the first when there's 242 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.559 cost overages, one of the first things they pulled from his transportation because it's 243 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:50.480 the last thing to make it move and people don't realize. So they might 244 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.519 add in there. But there was a cost overrun on overtime and they said, 245 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:56.440 well, where are we pulling this money from? Well, let's take 246 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:58.639 it out of shipping. We'll just find a cheaper truck. We'll wait for 247 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:03.080 that problem in the end. That happens. The next thing you know, 248 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:05.360 I get something that should move for two thousand dollars and I'm in a phone 249 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:09.320 call saying all we have is a thousand dollars in it because we had some 250 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:13.399 cost overruns. We pulled from the transportation funds. Uh, what can you 251 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:18.159 do for us? It's right, okay, I know there's so many steps 252 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:22.360 along the way that can go wrong. And then the last step is we 253 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:24.960 need to find a truck for it, and it's like okay, Great. 254 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.720 So then as little as physically possible we want to spend on this. So 255 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:30.759 it's like that. That that seems certainly to be the case. But I 256 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:33.039 want to add that, like, Um, you know, like I totally 257 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:37.519 saw this transition that you're talking about of like, Um, I'm not calling 258 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:41.279 any brokers, like I mentioned earlier. I'm not calling any brokers that don't 259 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:46.159 post a price too. Here's my price. Where an hour away and we 260 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:50.440 have good tarps and good trucks. Like, I totally made that transition and 261 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:52.840 it's that's a highly recommended transition for all carriers to make. Right, you're 262 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:56.720 coming from you, like you said in the beginning, you have experienced as 263 00:15:56.759 --> 00:15:58.720 a motor carrier. I was a motor carrier on the road for several years. 264 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:03.279 Like that is the place you want to get yourself to, where you're 265 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:06.799 training your staff to say, like, first of all, call on freight 266 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:08.480 where your trucks are close by. Like, don't book a load that's you 267 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:11.559 know, there's no point in Lyne to the broker, because that's not how 268 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:15.440 you build relationships. But so call on freight that's near your area and then 269 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:18.159 explain to them on the phone that, Hey, my truck is an hour 270 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:21.159 or two away, we have good actual truck tarps. If you're a flap 271 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:22.600 better right, or hey, we have a good reef reef re unit if 272 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:26.720 you're a refrigerated trailer, and explain to them why they should use you. 273 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:30.559 But always at the end. So I give all the like, here's what 274 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:32.720 you do really well, and then I say, but I'm gonna need to 275 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:36.279 twenty a mile on this right and then the broker tells me, hey, 276 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:40.200 that's not something we can do. And oftentimes we would call and oftentimes would 277 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:41.679 say, all right, that's fine, we can't haul it for less than 278 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:45.159 that, and so we would have to let go. Um. And so, 279 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:48.799 depending on the you know, the economy and the truck markets and the 280 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:52.919 lanes like, you want to see what the decision is whether you want to 281 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:56.279 take whatever the broker the rate that they give you, or maybe negotiate me 282 00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:57.919 in the middle or something like that. But really you want to start talking 283 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:02.200 to customer yourself once to get more experience and more knowledge. So Um, 284 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:04.680 I. I know that was a very, very healthy transition for my company 285 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:07.519 when we switched from Hey, if it's not post, if there's no rate, 286 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:11.160 post that, don't call to Um. Let's try to sell ourselves because 287 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:14.880 at the end of the the you know, the dispatchers are a sales department. 288 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.400 So, Um, that was a really healthy transition and a healthy company. 289 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:19.119 A lot for sure, real quickly. And one of the things, 290 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:22.720 too, is remember what you're doing now as a motor carrier. You have 291 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:26.119 your own numbers, your motor carrier. The goals you to get direct customers. 292 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.440 That's the goal for you to get direct customers. If you constantly there's 293 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:32.359 no way you're gonna walk into a direct customer and say how much do you 294 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:33.920 have in the load? Right? They're gonna throw you out the door in 295 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:38.440 the beginning. So you want to be able to teach yourself how use brokers 296 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:41.720 to train yourself on how to talk to customers. I mean because if you 297 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:45.839 have a brokerage right now, let's say you're calling a certain brokerage and you 298 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:48.680 don't like the person on the phone, you can hang up, dial again 299 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.559 and get somebody new. That doesn't happen in the Shipping Department. You will 300 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:53.680 call and say can have the Shipping Department? Oh, I don't want to 301 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:56.799 talk to that guy. Well, he's our only shipping person. Oh, 302 00:17:56.839 --> 00:17:59.680 never mind. You know what I mean. So teach yourself, by using 303 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:03.039 broke ors, how you're eventually going to run your business. When you go 304 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.759 for direct customers and it's not gonna be how much money do you have in 305 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:08.640 the load? It's gonna be this is what I can do it for. 306 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:12.279 Is that something that will work for me? That that's a really good like 307 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:17.160 that's a like a perspective, you know, or thinking change right. It's 308 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:19.920 like, don't think of a broker as somebody that's taking money off the top 309 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:22.920 or something like that, but think of it like this is your customer in 310 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:26.920 in this current instance, and it's like if you were, if this was 311 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:29.640 a shipper or a direct customer, how would you talk to them? And 312 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.839 you would probably tell them that, like, Hey, where we're locally in 313 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:34.799 the area, we can pick up try we can pick up loads once a 314 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:37.799 week, but we would need this much. And it's like that's the exact 315 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:41.799 conversation you want to have with your brokers when you're trying to bookloads off the 316 00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:45.960 spot market. Um, but I is that like they're granted. You know 317 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:51.720 that there's a concern there, but is it because uh, greed, like 318 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:56.160 have brokers started to take too much? Like have they that? Have the 319 00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:00.680 broker services become too expensive and because of the Trans parency laws not being as 320 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:04.160 clear or something like like. First of all, let's talk about transparency. 321 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:07.319 That might be a better before we go down like talk to me about transparency. 322 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:10.960 I know for a fact as a motor carrier, as a motor carrier 323 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:15.079 for six years, like I'd even know there were transparency laws on the books. 324 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:17.039 But I think you know this a little bit better than I do. 325 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:19.160 So first of all, educate us on what are the transparency laws? What 326 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:22.559 are they for? There's a there's a u s code, and maybe you 327 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:23.200 can throw it up on the screen. We do this. But there's a 328 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:27.119 U s code. I think it's fourteen something, something something, but there's 329 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:30.480 a it's an actually us code. So, in regards to broker transparency, 330 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:36.319 it requires all UM people involved in the movement of the freight, I'm kind 331 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:41.160 of paraphrasing, to be able to come in and see what everything is paying. 332 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:42.960 So, as a broker, US what the shipper is paying, what 333 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:47.440 the carriers getting, what I'm paying. You know, everybody that's involved in 334 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:51.519 this movement of the shipment is allowed to come into the other person's office during 335 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:55.359 their work hours, basically at their convenience, and take a look at how 336 00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:00.640 much I actually build. Now again, I'm not a lawyer. No, 337 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:04.319 nor is Alex here, but Um, one of the things that I see 338 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:10.599 this most used for is if there's a lawsuit, nobody needs a subpoena. 339 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:15.000 They can come right in and pull records, because most truck drivers aren't gonna 340 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:18.599 show up at an office of a freight broker up in Missouri when they're from 341 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:23.359 Atlanta during their off hours during the day parking, but a lawyer will. 342 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:29.039 So it's a lot of times if there's a wreck or a law peep, 343 00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:30.839 lawyers want to be able to see how much money was involved in this, 344 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:34.680 how much money everybody has, and a lawyer can come in. Now. 345 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:40.839 The problem it also stems from is if I'm moving volume with let's say a 346 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:44.920 huge person like a Niagara Water or a huge person that's moving a lot of 347 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:48.359 freight, I'm not building them per load, I'm building them a lump stop. 348 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.319 Right here's what we moved and a lot of times some brokers, when 349 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.559 it comes to volume, they might mark up five percent on every load, 350 00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:00.559 six percent on every load. So every Oh that I move there's a five 351 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:04.000 percent markup or a six percent markup if there's a lot of volume, if 352 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:07.599 there's not a lot of volume. There might be a markup on a load 353 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:14.640 and the more volume that customer gives. But in regards to the transparency, 354 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.920 technically, after the load is done, you, a carrier or a shipper 355 00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:23.160 can come in to my office and see exactly what I paid. Now that 356 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:27.240 the paperwork can't leave, but they're welcome to come in and take a look 357 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:30.680 at how much it paid. Who, who would you know? who was 358 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.119 picked up, who was delivered, where it went, who did the ordering 359 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:37.319 and all that information right and I was able to pull it up. It's 360 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:41.200 the forty code of federal regulations, part three three, and it is a 361 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:45.640 broker shall keep a record of each transaction. For purpose of this section, 362 00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:49.640 brokers may keep master lists of consigners and the address and registration number of the 363 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:55.000 carrier, rather than repeating this information for each transaction. The records shall show 364 00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:57.359 the name and address the consigner of the name, address and registration number of 365 00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:00.480 the originating motor carrier, a bill of a leading or freight build number, 366 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:07.039 the amount of compensation received by the broker for the brokerage service performed and the 367 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:11.240 named of the payer, a description of any non brokerage services performed in connection 368 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:14.039 with each shipment and other activity, in the amount of conversation received for the 369 00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:17.680 service and the name of the payer and the amount any freight charges collected by 370 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:19.279 the broker and date of payment to the carrier. Um. Then it goes 371 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:23.240 down and say that Um, brokers shall keep the records required by the section 372 00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:27.519 for a period of three years each party to a broker transaction. Okay, 373 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:33.119 then this is the key one. So each party to a brokered transaction has 374 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:37.880 their right to review the record of the transaction required to be kept by these 375 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:41.079 rules. So each party. So the shipper, receiver, freight broker and 376 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:45.920 motor carrier. Um. So, but the the issue is, of course, 377 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:48.440 that you know some Um, some brokers. Now, while I was 378 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:52.039 trying to search this up, a quick side note. Um, the FM 379 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:56.759 C S A had this past year opened up for comments for um like proof 380 00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:03.839 of brokers violating or broker's price gouging. They open that up and several articles 381 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:07.559 in a row came up and saying like they're like rare evidence. Is Rare 382 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:12.759 evidence support that brokers are priced douging. So more than likely, Um, 383 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:17.400 it is not the case that it brokers are priced douging. But I think 384 00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:19.119 there is that like, there is that thing like, well, I'm doing 385 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:22.599 all the work, why should you get a cut in the first place? 386 00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:29.119 And because oftentimes in a broker agreement you waive your right to review this. 387 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:33.200 I think this is where the issue arises out of this correctly. Yeah, 388 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:36.599 and it's frustrating. I remember also somewhere, and I have to pull up 389 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:38.400 the case, but there was also something that said, look, I have 390 00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:42.920 to pay a Um I can't hire somebody if I've got five thousand for the 391 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:45.599 load. The last thing I want to do is pay one thousand for the 392 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:51.640 load because I'm obviously hiring a carrier that is way, way underpaid and probably 393 00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:55.880 running crappy equipment. So that goes against Um, my job as a broker. 394 00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:57.559 My job as a broker is to make sure that the carrier that I'm 395 00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:02.279 hiring has the proper safety and is good at what they do. So I 396 00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:04.960 obviously can't have five thousand dollars on the load and pay one thousand to a 397 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:10.000 carrier and I'm gonna have to assume that that carrier does not have that very 398 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:11.640 good of a record if they're willing to take it for that so that's another 399 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:15.240 thing that they can come in and say. Okay, look now, in 400 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:17.960 regards to waiving this, you wave a lot of things. One thing that 401 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:21.240 every carrier should know about, that does not pertain to a broker, but 402 00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:23.359 the broker should know about it, is carmack. You should have to be 403 00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:27.599 fully aware of carmack. CARMACK is carmack amendment. You should look that up. 404 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:33.640 It's IT'S A it was established, I believe, in Nineteen, I 405 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:37.799 think twenty six. Basically that are you know rules, what your what your 406 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.559 obligations are as a carrier. It tells you about being able to hold a 407 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.640 load and for payment and things like that. That should be one thing, 408 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:49.640 and they transparency. One of the reasons this gets waived, and what people 409 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:53.839 don't want to hear is that a lot of times I sign what's called a 410 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:59.839 non disclosure agreement, meaning I can't tell anybody what this load paid me, 411 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.599 how much I got from the shipper, because a lot of times shippers are 412 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:08.880 manufacturers. Let's say that you know what they're marking freight up. Also for 413 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:12.759 problems. So let's use an example. I use simple numbers. I might 414 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:17.359 go to the shipperings that I've got a truck for two thousand, that shipper 415 00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:21.839 might say three thousand to the person buying the the item. The receiver, 416 00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:26.680 okay, they might mark it up a thousand dollars to cover, let's say 417 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:30.079 the cost of the crane on their end to load it. Um, the 418 00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:33.440 fact that they've got to pay me before they're paid. If there's any type 419 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:34.920 of detention, they're not going to go back to their customer. They're just 420 00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:38.759 gonna go ahead and pay me from that Um. But they mark that freight 421 00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:42.920 up, and I can give an example when this happened to me if you'd 422 00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:48.960 like. Um. But if the receiver finds out that the freight was marked 423 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:53.839 up by the manufacturing party, they might not. They might get into a 424 00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:57.000 disagreement about that, that markup. They might think it's too high, they 425 00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:00.400 might think that what are you doing that for? You know what I mean. 426 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.160 Blah, Blah Blah. But this stuff happens. Um sometimes it's needed 427 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:07.319 because they know, like there's been one that we know there's gonna be detention 428 00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:12.440 on the receiving end. So my manufacturer has basically said we're gonna up charge 429 00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:15.720 and then let us know how much and then they cover it through that up 430 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:19.519 charge in the end. But what happens if there's no detention on that end? 431 00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:25.000 And that's that's usually the stuff that's it is marked up by other people 432 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:29.720 than just you know, the broker, right, right. So the price 433 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:33.920 that a a receiver when you're buying something, the price that they pay. 434 00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:38.200 And again, like another example is Ebay. To ebay comes to mind because 435 00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:42.519 of this Um like a more practical, right straightforward approaches. When you're buying 436 00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:48.680 something on Ebay, right, and it says for shipping. Right, I 437 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:51.279 know a lot of times there's free shipping, but that's because it comes out 438 00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:53.920 of the profit of the out of the product you're selling. But but when 439 00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:56.839 you see on on an Ebay listing, let's say you're shopping for something, 440 00:26:56.839 --> 00:27:02.240 and it says twelve dollars and cents for shipping, the shipping actually might have 441 00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:04.440 only cost seven bucks, right, or eight bucks, you don't know. 442 00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:07.839 Maybe they package you a little bit. So this is the exact same situation. 443 00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:14.599 Now imagine a high volume shipper where now some of their profit comes from 444 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.759 up charging their customers on that. Like, is that a dishonest business practice? 445 00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:21.200 I don't know. The customer at the end of the day agrees to 446 00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:26.079 pay a rate. So like it seems fair. And so carriers and brokers 447 00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:29.359 may sign and maybe, and this is the reason we're talking about, they 448 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:33.960 may be signing an NBA or they may be waiving their right to review the 449 00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:38.079 broker records because of situations like this. This is what we're getting out correct 450 00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:41.240 and and exactly. And there's time like even that e Bay situation. So 451 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:45.200 let's say it shipping, but it's only six dollars. Well, you still 452 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:48.799 had to wrap it, box it, go to to drop it off at 453 00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:52.240 the UBS Dore, wherever you're shipping it from. That's all time, right. 454 00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:56.599 That's all calculated time. That now think about if you're working at any 455 00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:00.559 base door and you're paying somebody fifteen dollars an hour nowaday as, to go 456 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:03.599 and take that to the ebay store to wrap it and stuff. So it 457 00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:07.160 might take thirty minutes. So it costs you seven dollars to ship it and 458 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:11.680 seven dollars for the employee to wrap it, box it and drop it off. 459 00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:15.720 So this is kind of what manufacturers and shippers are looking at right. 460 00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:18.279 There's a markup on the cost to get it loaded onto the truck. There's 461 00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:22.759 you know, to pay me to hire an accountant, to pay me to 462 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.279 hire the transportation guy who might have talked to me for fift twenty minutes. 463 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:30.359 There is this is all business, right. So there are markups from these 464 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:33.599 things. So, but to be a lot of people, as we all 465 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:37.440 know. I mean, I'm in shipping and I don't I like using free 466 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:40.400 shipping, even though mentally I know it's in the price of the item, 467 00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:44.960 it's still free shipping. Um. So it's kind of this is what we 468 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:47.920 do in this industry, is what we do as people, right, but 469 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:49.920 in trucking, obviously, Um, that can't be the case, because I 470 00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:55.960 was specifically remember I was transporting a load and the load actually cost only three 471 00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:59.640 thousand dollars to make and it was a cross country move and they actually paid 472 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:03.279 me four thousand dollars to move it. So it's like it would be impossible 473 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:07.400 to include shipping costs into items like that, you know, and so it's 474 00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:11.720 like this is why sometimes they do that where it's like hey, the shipping 475 00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:14.519 costs is gonna be four grand, Um, and then you know, but 476 00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:18.119 they actually only gave it to the trucking company for because there is a broker 477 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:22.920 cut in there, there was the material wrapping, employee costs in there. 478 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.000 So Um, there's a lot of expenses. And at the end of the 479 00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:27.160 day, just like with the ebay example, no one's forcing you to buy 480 00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:30.160 something on Ebay. Didn't you have a you know, free market choice? 481 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:33.519 And it's like the same thing. A big company buys a specific product from 482 00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:37.440 a business. They they'll you know, they just want the product received and 483 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.240 that's it. So Um, like I I could under I'm sympathetic two truckers 484 00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:44.240 that say like Oh, we're getting the short end of the stick. I 485 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:48.720 am sympathetic, but oftentimes it is just business and so Um. But I 486 00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:52.279 do want to move on from this and like we we briefly mentioned it. 487 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:55.519 Right, and and some of your experience. Right, you, you are 488 00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:59.279 you. You said you started out as a motor carrier, Um, or 489 00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:00.720 you were a mode a carrier and broker. Give us, give us some 490 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.599 of the stuff, give us some of your experience, some of the you 491 00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:04.960 know, career highlights. Yeah, so, basically, when I started out 492 00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:08.880 driving, I was twenty one years old. Drove for like Um Schneider and 493 00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:12.400 then I drove locally for US Food Service. I went in the Coast Guard. 494 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:15.599 I left the Coast Guard and went back into trucking. Um. Drove 495 00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:19.359 for CR England as a least driver. Did that for like thirty days and 496 00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:23.279 I'm like this ain't it. Um bought my own truck. Um was and 497 00:30:23.319 --> 00:30:26.680 then when I drove for Land Star, fedtist Cups with critical as a tractor 498 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:32.039 trailer driver, and then my wife became a land star agent. And then 499 00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:33.400 in two thousand and eight we had a recession, sort of like we do 500 00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:37.240 now, and I had to decide between the freight brokerage and and and the 501 00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.079 truck I drove. I picked the freight brokerage, Um, and then from 502 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:47.720 there I basically rolled into um out of leaving land star, opening up my 503 00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:51.720 own brokerage and specializing now into over dimensional freight. For me it was smarter 504 00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:56.400 to go UH, quality rather than quantity, as a one man show, 505 00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:00.880 Um with doing what I did. So I've been doing over dimensional freight and 506 00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:06.680 very, very little legal stuff Um for the last twelve years. But what 507 00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:08.599 I do want to mention real quick too, is you mentioned the price gouging 508 00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:14.559 type thing. And understand, and I bring this to drivers. Oh you're 509 00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:18.039 price couging the driver. No, I'm actually price couging the shipper. Right, 510 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.839 and I'm price gouging the shipper for three thousand dollars and paying one thousand 511 00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.880 to a carrier. So it's not. So the issue is, is that 512 00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:30.759 one of those things that's actually when when freight broker's price grouds, they're actually 513 00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:36.160 price gouging the shipper, not the driver, because because they could be giving 514 00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:38.640 the shipper a discount but they're not for some reason. Right, correct. 515 00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:41.640 I could be using it for I could be moving it for fifteen hundreds. 516 00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:45.279 So if the price couging thing comes in, shippers are still not gonna pay 517 00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.799 three thousand and give you more money to haul it because you just hauled it 518 00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:52.880 for one thousand. So why? And I talked to I have this conversation 519 00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:56.519 with drivers all time. You just hauled it for a thousand dollars for five 520 00:31:56.519 --> 00:31:59.400 weeks in a row. You found out that I was getting two thousand. 521 00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:02.240 You want to cut me out and then split the money with the shipper, 522 00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:05.920 and the shipper is gonna be like cool, I'll see you next week and 523 00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:07.200 I'll cut you a check for a thousand. It's like, well, no, 524 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:10.799 no, I want why do you want when you've been moving it for 525 00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:15.039 five weeks for a thousand. Why would you're already moving it for five weeks 526 00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.279 for a thousand? I'm not your sponsor, you know what I mean. 527 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:22.519 So it's and this is where drivers don't understand, is that it's not going 528 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:27.000 to raise your rate because you've because you don't name your own rate, because 529 00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:29.920 you don't come in there and say I need this much to run my business, 530 00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:35.200 you're not helping for yourself with that. The best way to have your 531 00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:38.440 you to help yourself as a driver is to know your rates and go in 532 00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:43.680 there saying this is my rate and this is why I need this money and 533 00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:46.599 I'll be there in twenty minutes. If you can make it happen, that 534 00:32:46.759 --> 00:32:51.880 raises you UM and and we we've we've sat down on this show actually with 535 00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:54.359 numerous guests and we talked about safety and how safety can improve your rates, 536 00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:58.680 how technology to talk to like that, can improve your rates. So there's 537 00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:01.759 many things that I carry your do to really ultimately, what it comes down 538 00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:07.119 to is setting themselves apart from the competition. There's many things that carrier can 539 00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:09.599 do and and that is an important part. Make sure, as a carrier 540 00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:14.000 and even as a broker. Right, it's like maybe your communication is better. 541 00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:16.359 Like I remember the origin story of T Q l. Their whole stick 542 00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:22.240 was like I'm annoyed that I can't get ahold of a broker seven, like 543 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:23.839 that was the t qul whole stick. Is, like they wanted to be 544 00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:28.200 a seven broker, and so they were pioneers in that. And so it's 545 00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:31.799 like, like what is going to give your company the competitive advantge, competitive 546 00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:35.880 edge, the competitive advantage? So you want to really make sure you're looking 547 00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:38.400 into that. But Um, this Eric, this is called the road forward. 548 00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:42.319 And so I know trucking has a lot of ups and downs and you 549 00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:44.839 know there's a lot of technology, it seems like, on the horizon. 550 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.519 Like where do you see where do you see the industry going as a whole? 551 00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:51.559 Where do you see brokers going? Because, in my opinion, um, 552 00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:53.880 just like with a stockbrokers, right, like do you use a stockbroker 553 00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:57.799 now? Probably not. Just like with real estate brokers. There's more tech 554 00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:00.400 firms. Um, like where do you see there? Like the what is 555 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:02.799 the road forward for freight brokers? Well, as as always, you're wrong. 556 00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:06.839 Um, just when I saying no. It's one of those things that 557 00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:12.480 with freight brokers. Carriers were already seeing the push towards the self driving trucks, 558 00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:15.679 right. That's a push that's happening in in other countries and China the 559 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.400 Belt Road Initiative. They've got roads dedicated to moving those self driving trucks. 560 00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:22.079 And I explain this in regards to freight brokers. If you're a freight broker 561 00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:25.280 that just sits at the screen and takes a load from your shipper and sticks 562 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:29.079 it on the loadboard, you're already a waste, right. You're are. 563 00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:31.159 There's no need for you. I can I can already you know. But 564 00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:37.119 what freight brokers actually do? It is one they take liability off the shipper 565 00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:39.079 and there's a good story. And if you ever want to cover this, 566 00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:45.199 Um, if you google turtle hop tubs in out of Colorado, one hot 567 00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:51.559 tub to make is eight teen moves. There is eight team logistical moves from 568 00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:54.960 three different countries and a bunch of different states, and if you Google it, 569 00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:59.480 it's a very short story, Um, that you can actually see how 570 00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:05.039 one hot tub takes eighteen logistical moves. And that's what a freight broker does. 571 00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:08.760 He makes all those eighteen logistical moves and allows the shipper to focus on 572 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:14.880 making the hot tub and not moving the hot tub. And I always suggested 573 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:20.360 carriers read that and see that and take a look at that and to understand 574 00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:25.360 how much actually goes into various countries, everything from boats to planes, two 575 00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:30.880 trucks, Um, to big trucks too, you know, little trucks to 576 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:35.960 put together one hot tub. And that's so in regards to logistics, I 577 00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:42.000 think you're gonna start to see a lot more um logistical companies, possibly merging 578 00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:46.800 and being and buying out and and moving things and moving a lot more towards 579 00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:51.679 a software aspect of it. But I think you're gonna see a lot more 580 00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:58.280 of the UM. Unfortunately, the mom and POPs per se brokerage is being 581 00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:00.760 eaten up by the technologies. It's not that you're gonna get rid of you're 582 00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:04.679 gonna see the mom and pop, smaller broke which is getting eaten up by 583 00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:09.039 the technology because they can't handle the shipping, the flights, uh and all 584 00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:14.280 of the eight team move processes Um in regards to that aspect. So you're 585 00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:16.519 gonna see more of the T qls, the C H Robinson's, the big 586 00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:22.079 ones and less of the littler ones as technology comes up, because you're still 587 00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:25.000 gonna want that one. The shippers are still gonna want to say, look, 588 00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:28.239 I'm not in logistics, I don't want to handle this, just make 589 00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:30.519 it happen, get me all my parts, I need to put this hot 590 00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:32.639 tub together. I don't want the liability, I don't want the responsibility for 591 00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:37.000 that. I got hot tubs to make. But as we have problems with, 592 00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:39.920 obviously trying to find people to do this, the actual logistical it's gonna 593 00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:45.199 be more than a logistics person rather than just a freight broker. Does that 594 00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:49.360 make sense? Yeah, so there's definitely gonna be some consolidation in the marketplace 595 00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:52.119 of the freight broker Um, and it seems like you're either gonna have a 596 00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:55.920 little bit more experience and handle the more challenging moves. Maybe there's gonna be 597 00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:00.719 several different modes or there's there you know, maybe it's like in your situation, 598 00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:04.639 which is overdimensional free that's not something a robot or a computer or software 599 00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:06.800 can fix. Like at the end of the day, when it's, you 600 00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:09.159 know, nineteen ft wide or whatever and ten feet tall and it needs a 601 00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:14.360 fourteen different there's if there's a many moving parts. If for sure will not 602 00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:20.679 be like something technology will solve. However, the consolidation will come from all 603 00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:24.000 those brokers that are moving generic free. You know, if your load goes 604 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:28.960 into drive in and you're still working with that customer, I mean you know, 605 00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:32.239 software will make it easier to hire the other company instead of you. 606 00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:37.199 And so do you have any advice for for small mom and pop freet brokers 607 00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:38.719 what they could do to prepare for this? Maybe go get a CDL, 608 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:43.920 get into the truck. You're gonna want uh no, Um. But now 609 00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:46.639 it's one of those things that it's it's they're gonna want to specify or or 610 00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:52.119 specialize in what they do. They're gonna want to find that. I mean 611 00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:54.159 it's the same thing. Like, obviously this is consolidation. Happens all the 612 00:37:54.199 --> 00:37:58.119 time. Walmart comes in and wipes out little grocery stores, right. That 613 00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:01.039 just stuff happens. But it's gonna to my opinion, you know, van 614 00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:04.760 is the easiest, and I say it's all the time to drivers too. 615 00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:07.639 It's like when next time you're at truck stop, tell me how many vans 616 00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:09.119 are sitting around. You got a drone send that drone up and take a 617 00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:14.039 look at all those trucks sitting there. How can you pick yours out from 618 00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:16.440 everybody else? Right? How can you be the woman in the red dress, 619 00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:21.719 you know in the Matrix? Right? And the same thing with whether 620 00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:23.679 as a freight broker. If you can't be the woman in the red dress, 621 00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:28.039 be that you know that freight broker, have some type of specialty or 622 00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:30.679 and you're just posting. You're just taking a load from your shipper and posting 623 00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:35.280 it on the loadboard, you're already obsolete with the loadboard. The loadboard already 624 00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:38.239 made you obsolete. Right. So you better, you know, find how 625 00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:43.639 you can actually benefit more. And it's it's more about networking. Like I 626 00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:47.840 always tell Fred, brokers, call carriers before you call customers. Sell a 627 00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:52.960 carrier to a customer, right. I mean if you call a customer and 628 00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:55.840 you have a load without a truck, you're a con man. Basically, 629 00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:59.280 you don't have a truck. Oh, I got ten trucks. So you 630 00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.199 have a loadboard. You don't. You have that's not the truer right. 631 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:06.519 But if you have carriers that you could you can go to if your carrier 632 00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:09.239 want to get in this find a carrier that you could almost be a salesperson 633 00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:12.880 for him and say, look, I'm looking for customers in this area. 634 00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:15.199 I notice you're in this area. If I start to get into this customer's 635 00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:19.679 door, would you be willing to be my first go to, you know, 636 00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:22.880 the first right to refusal for this freight? If I was able to 637 00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:25.320 offer this to you, and if a carrier SMART, they're gonna say yeah, 638 00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:28.280 I sure, let me see what you got and next thing I know 639 00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:30.400 I can go back to that customer and say, okay, look, I'm 640 00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:34.199 working with a ten carrier, ten truck carrier in this area. Um, 641 00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:37.599 if you can be their outbound freight, I could probably get you some, 642 00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:39.880 you know, decent freight or decent prices, realistic prices. They know the 643 00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:44.679 difference between a spot market price and a and an actual contracted price. They're 644 00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:46.119 willing to work with US long term. They're not looking for, you know, 645 00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:51.679 on one load situation and kind of negotiate that way with your customer to 646 00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:54.320 get in the door. You now have something to sell. The best thing 647 00:39:54.320 --> 00:40:00.360 I tell brokers to do is don't sell a loadboard. Find some thing to 648 00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:01.760 sell, because you're a salesman. When it deep. When it comes down 649 00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:04.920 to it, you're a salesman. I gotta sell to the carrier, got 650 00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:07.960 sell to the customer. How do I make this happen? And if you 651 00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:12.199 only have a customer giving you something and you don't have anybody to sell it 652 00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:15.679 to, it's easier to have somebody to sell it to, to work that 653 00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:22.920 middleman position. So, as afraid, find carriers and then find customers that 654 00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:27.480 would help that carrier and be that middleman for that carrier and that customer and 655 00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:30.000 put those two together through you. And that's and then, besides that, 656 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:35.199 start to specialize in either open deck Um, stay out of oversize, because 657 00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:38.239 that's what I do. But no, I'm just Um that. That's the 658 00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:44.760 you know, uh, me being territorial, but that's let's try to find 659 00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:49.840 if it's dredge, if it's sports, if it's containers, something that just 660 00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:54.079 not every Joe Schmo has knowledge in, and dive into it as much as 661 00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:57.960 you can about it. Learn who the carriers are in that aspect, in 662 00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:00.639 that field, what it takes, the difference between a chat seeing a container, 663 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:04.679 forty container or twenty container and all this other stuff. Learn what you 664 00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:08.719 know. The differences are so that you can provide the best information to your 665 00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:12.760 customer when they have questions. Right. Well, there you go, folks, 666 00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:15.880 you heard it here first, some advice for motor carriers, some advice 667 00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:19.480 for your freight brokerage, Um, all from someone that has tons of years 668 00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.039 and years of experience. So Um, really good, Eric. Thank you 669 00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:23.320 so much for coming on the show that I'll do it for this one. 670 00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:25.480 If you if you are enjoying the show and you want to leave us a 671 00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:29.480 review, please. We appreciate those. You know, we especially like the 672 00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:30.960 five star ones, but you know, you're more than welcome to share your 673 00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:35.480 your thoughts with us in those reviews. So Um, thank you so much 674 00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:42.039 and we will see you in the next episode.